The Money with Katie Show

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Finance bros are out, #RichGirls are in. Join Money with Katie and her guests as they talk spending habits, smart investing, and tax strategies – without putting you to sleep. Listen weekly on Wednesdays to learn how to turn your Rich Girl mindset into money.

Episode Date
Buying Small Businesses: Is Investing in One Worth It?
A couple months ago, I got really anxious about income.  Aside from ~lite paranoia~ being one of the core tenets of my personality, my concern was (probably) justified. Rumblings of a recession on the horizon, #stonks going down, and the fact that Money with Katie was my sole source of income started to make me feel a little…vulnerable. So I started looking into alternative investments. While I deeply considered real estate and passed for the time being, I discovered an amazing world of online content around buying small businesses and began my pursuit. This episode dives into where I looked, what I found, the two businesses I almost bought, and why I didn’t pull the trigger. Plus, two interviews: One with Sarah Becker, a friend of mine who bought a dilapidated commercial property in her neighborhood when she was 24, and another with Steffany Boldrini, a successful investor in the self-storage space. Sarah's new course, Independent Retirement Academy, launched on May 23. Listeners of Money with Katie get $50 off with code MWK50. Follow Along Blog Instagram Twitter
May 25, 2022
How to Start Investing Successfully with Just Two Funds
The best part about living in 2022 is the fact that you don’t have to know anything about investing to be a successful investor thanks to products like Betterment (and financial technology more broadly).  But what if you do want to manage your own investments? Then what? Before I learned about Paul Merriman and Chris Pedersen’s Two Funds for Life strategy, I never really knew what to tell people aside from do your research and best of luck to you, madam. So this week, I’m joined by Chris (who created the Two Funds for Life model) to talk about an amazing 80/20 solution for getting proper, low-cost diversification with only two funds (hence the name). Not only that, but the “rebalancing” is more or less taken care of for you.  Follow Along Blog Instagram Twitter
May 18, 2022
The Myth of the "Dream Job" and Expanding Your Earning Potential
Lauren from Career Contessa joins me this week for a revelatory conversation about the myth of the elusive “dream job.” Ironically, it took getting my dream job to realize it’s…still a job. Wait a second, why does this still feel like work sometimes? So why does acknowledging this myth and moving past it matter? Because the illusion that there’s a “dream job” out there for you (the career version of a soulmate) leads to both expectation hangovers and disappointment when—surprise!—even a job you really like comes with downsides. This episode is an exploration of the idea that maybe the grass isn’t always greener, and the things that make a job “good” are often overlooked in our misguided pursuit of a job that elicits “passion.” That said, we also discuss the importance of liking what you do (to a healthy extent) and the positive financial outcomes that enjoying your work can bring.
May 11, 2022
BONUS: The SHEcession, Childcare, and Modern Motherhood in the US
...because who's more qualified to talk about the challenges of being a mother than someone without kids, right?! Right?! 3.5 million women were pushed out of the workforce in March 2020 because of caretaking challenges. Overnight, we dropped to 1988 levels of women’s workforce participation, which confirms the theory that there’s a causal relationship between childcare availability and affordability, and women’s workforce participation. Hear from your favorite childless woman (yours truly!) and a slew of Rich-Girls-Turned-Rich-Moms about how they've addressed these challenges in their own lives. One of the Rich Girls (Moms) who called in is also a personal finance writer: Ashley Feinstein Gerstley is the author of Financial Adulting, a guide that breaks down everything you need to be a financially confident and conscious adult. As a trusted money expert, she has appeared on or been quoted in The Financial Times, the TODAY Show, CNBC, Forbes, NBC, Glamour and the The New York Times. Ashley has worked in the financial services industry for over fifteen years: first as an investment banker, then in corporate finance, and most recently running The Fiscal Femme. She graduated with a bachelor's in finance from the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania. Follow along Instagram Twitter Blog
May 08, 2022
The Most Dangerous Misconceptions about the 4% Safe Withdrawal Rate
So much of personal finance and early retirement #literature is predicated on the 4% safe withdrawal rate that it’s easy to forget that the “rule” was discovered in the 1990s by the original Freak in the Spreadsheets, Bill Bengen. And man, the financial media loves to splash sensational headlines about the 4% rule all over the place (“The founder of the 4% rule just changed it!”). You know the kind. But there are a lot of misconceptions about the 4% rule, including the recent criticisms that it’s no longer valid. If you ever want to retire, this episode is a must-listen. I welcomed Brian Feroldi onto the show to talk about the underlying assumption that makes the 4% rule work—over time, the stock market generally goes up. Brian's new book (aptly named Why Does the Stock Market Go Up?) is out now. Sources cited Historical bond returns Follow along Instagram Twitter Newsletter
May 04, 2022
Why Owners & Renters Alike Would Benefit from a Housing Market Cooldown
Today's episode is about the current reality of the US housing market (and stock market, to some degree) and how it's—paradoxically—not actually good for anyone, renters and owners alike. The one group it is benefiting? Investors. The episode dives into why I think a cooldown is inevitable, and focuses more on why human shelter turning into an inflated asset class is dangerous for everyone who needs a house to live in. Look no further than Canada’s precarious situation and increasing homelessness for a cautionary tale. My guest this week (Brandon of Mad FIentist fame) lends his perspective as someone who narrowly escaped the bubble burst in 2008 and ended up losing money on his next property—only to be priced out entirely in 2022. For context, Brandon retired a multimillionaire at age 34. He rents. Cited Sources Philip Pilkington's dire warning about intergenerational "war" stemming from inflated asset prices Investor participation in the real estate market reaching new highs (Washington Post) Americans' inability to pay for a minor emergency Follow Along Blog Instagram Twitter
Apr 27, 2022
How to Buy Back Your Time: Outsourcing Tasks with Farnoosh Torabi
Today's episode is all about outsourcing, a topic around which my views have evolved over the years. (Read: As you get older and busier, you're less interested in "doing it all," apparently.) We discuss how to determine what's worth outsourcing in your life and how much to pay for it, as well as address some common objections. My guest today, Farnoosh Torabi, is an icon in the personal finance world (and a mother of 2!) and she's got some #hottakes on the value of her (and your) time. You can check out Farnoosh on CNET's So Money podcast. To learn more about the Money with Katie Retreat, head here. Resources Average time use per day of American men and women from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics "Even female breadwinners (the 29% of American women who out-earn their husbands) bear the brunt of household labor." "Even during a pandemic, gender gaps in sharing household responsibilities persist." FOLLOW ALONG Money with Katie Blog Money with Katie Instagram Money with Katie Twitter Sign up for the Newsletter! FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPTS AT HTTPS://PODCAST.MONEYWITHKATIE.COM
Apr 20, 2022
Investing in the Age of "Overvalued" Stocks & Homes with Nick Maggiulli
Today, my friend Nick Maggiulli (COO of Ritholtz Wealth Management & former data scientist, as well as author of Of Dollars & Data and his new book, Just Keep Buying) joined me to talk about something that’s been (justifiably) freaking me out a little bit lately. To boil it down to its most layman's terms is the government’s money printing the reason why stocks and homes are worth so much more now, and does that mean we’re headed for a crash?  More to the point: What the hell do we do about it? I think you’ll enjoy the little history lesson throwback (Kansas farmland in the 1970s, anyone?), the explanation of quantitative easing and expansionary monetary policy (I wish my Econ 101 professor could see my B+ self now), and—most importantly—the conversation I had with Nick about what we’re supposed to make of all this. Here's the Politico article referenced. Point of clarification: We reference the S&P 500's PE ratio (25 as of this recording) and Shiller PE ratio, or CAPE ratio (36 as of this recording), in this episode, and (somewhat confusingly) switch between the two in the conversation. Nick originally describes the CAPE ratio, and then I ask him his opinion of the current PE ratio. FOLLOW ALONG Money with Katie Blog Money with Katie Instagram Money with Katie Twitter Sign up for the Newsletter! FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPTS AT HTTPS://PODCAST.MONEYWITHKATIE.COM
Apr 13, 2022
Why You May Need to Save Less Than You Think for Retirement
Worried you're behind, or may not have enough money to retire someday? You may have less cause for concern than you think. Today’s episode dives into the math behind why you may need to save less than you think for retirement, with two solid examples from my own life. Plus, an interview with Kim Curtis, a nationally recognized wealth management advisor and President and CEO of Wealth Legacy Institute, where she dives into what we actually need to be worried about in retirement. Hint: It’s likely not running out of money. FOLLOW ALONG Money with Katie Blog Money with Katie Instagram Money with Katie Twitter Sign up for the Newsletter! FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPTS AT HTTPS://PODCAST.MONEYWITHKATIE.COM
Apr 06, 2022
Negotiating Tactics that Actually Work
Today, we're digging into negotiation tips that actually work—no perfecting crafty word play, performing mental jujitsu on a recruiter, or documenting months of "wins" required. Since I'm not a negotiation expert (just a gal who enjoys negotiating), I brought in two guests today: Miranda Martin, a CEO Coach who speaks to money mindset, and a dear friend of mine, Career Coach Darci, who speaks to compensation research and recruiter relations. Here's the blog post that complements this piece—it's all about how I increased my income. FOLLOW ALONG Money with Katie Blog Money with Katie Instagram Money with Katie Twitter Sign up for the Newsletter! FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPTS AT HTTPS://PODCAST.MONEYWITHKATIE.COM
Mar 30, 2022
Everything's an Investment: Building Your Epic Spending Plan
Today, we're diving into the money psychology that impacts the way we spend and save—and I'll give you the framework for an epic change to the way we think about spending and investing for today and the future. We'll also hear from Adam Day, a Certified Financial Planner who happens to be a Level 1 Certified Financial Therapist, about ways you can start to unearth the money stories driving your behavior. Self-awareness is key, no? Here are some of the free resources we mentioned in the episode: Future Self-Continuity and Its Impact On Financial Planning ( Money Motivator - Start ( Klontz Money Scripts Test ( FOLLOW ALONG Money with Katie Blog Money with Katie Instagram Money with Katie Twitter Sign up for the Newsletter! FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPTS AT HTTPS://PODCAST.MONEYWITHKATIE.COM
Mar 23, 2022
The Unexpected Problem with Your Financial Goals
Today’s episode is about the one major issue we all share with our financial planning: As humans, we’re bad at anticipating what’s going to make us happy.  Yep—it’s kinda hard to plan for what you think you’re going to want in 40 years, huh? Especially when some of those decisions tend to be inflexible. You’ll also hear from Sam Dogen (a.k.a., Financial Samurai) about his journey retiring—then un-retiring—at age 34.  You can preorder Sam’s book here. Here’s more information about why humans are bad at predicting what’s going to make us happy (or unhappy), and here’s the article I referenced about optimizing your tax strategy for early retirement. Here's my Financial Independence Planner that I use to project my path to financial freedom based on my current invested assets, income, and spending. FOLLOW ALONG Money with Katie Blog Money with Katie Instagram Money with Katie Twitter Sign up for the Newsletter! Full episode transcript below.
Mar 16, 2022
Navigating the U.S. Healthcare System Without Getting Financially F***ed
The healthcare marketplace in the United States is confusing, complex, and expensive. Why is it the way it is? Has it always been this way? Is it this way everywhere? These were my questions when I began this deep dive.  After reading a couple books, going on a week-long internet deep dive, and interviewing a healthcare consultant, I felt ready to bring some of my initial findings to you. Big thanks to Taylor, a healthcare consultant, for being interviewed for this episode, and Kaleigh, for sharing her experience giving birth to her daughter.  Snag a copy of Taylor's TEMPLATE FOR DENIED INSURANCE CLAIMS. Since this is a relatively fact-filled episode, sources are listed below by claim. FOLLOW ALONG Money with Katie Blog Money with Katie Instagram Money with Katie Twitter Sign up for the Newsletter! CLAIMS & MORE RESOURCES Any claim that doesn’t have a URL attached came from the book The Healing of America by T. R. Reid.  “Of the 11 richest countries in the world, America’s healthcare system ranks 11th. The judgment metrics are as follows: Access to care, care process, administrative efficiency, equity, and healthcare outcomes. The U.S. ranked last in four of the five criteria, with the exception of “care process,” for which we ranked second. Historical deep dive resource “The U.S. spends roughly the same amount as a percentage of GDP on Medicare and Medicaid alone that the rest of the rich countries spend insuring their entire populations, and the private sector spends even more.” “Estonia, Slovenia, Hungary, the Czech Republic, Korea, Israel… all of these countries have lower infant mortality rates than the United States.” “And pharmaceutical companies do spend, on average, around 20% of their total revenues on R&D.” “The U.S. actually ranks sixth in the World Index of Healthcare Innovation, behind Switzerland, Germany, and the Netherlands.” “A new analysis from insurance giant Humana itself and the University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine found that between $760 billion and $935 billion—or about a quarter of all U.S. healthcare spending—is considered “waste.”” Comments about Sweden’s economy and benefits FULL TRANSCRIPT AVAILABLE AT HTTPS://PODCAST.MONEYWITHKATIE.COM
Mar 09, 2022
Common 401(k) Mistakes to Avoid: Fees, Being Overly Conservative, and More
Today, we're taking a break from questioning the socioeconomic status quo and digging into a more tactical, technical topic: The most common 401(k) mistakes I see. Follow along Blog Instagram Twitter
Mar 02, 2022
Is "Financial Independence" a Sign of... a Problem?
Today, we hear from Dr. Anna Hulett, an industrial organizational psychologist (think female Adam Grant), about the state of work in the United States and why there’s a small legion of Millennials obsessed with financial independence retiring early.  Is financial independence a sign of… a problem? We examine data from other places (read: Scandinavian countries) where employment rates are higher, people are happier, and – ironically – the taxes and social safety nets are extreme. There’s a LOT to unpack here. Here’s the article referenced throughout. Follow along Blog Instagram Twitter
Feb 23, 2022
Building Financial Intimacy: How to Deal with Financial Irresponsibility in a Relationship
Today, we hear from several #RichGirls about the role money plays in their relationships and talk about ways to improve financial intimacy – and, most importantly, create some common ground with a financially irresponsible partner. Whether you're the irresponsible partner or you're trying to cope with having one (or hey, maybe you two switch places!), this episode provides tangible tactics (and even a few 'scripts' you can try) for improving your finances – together. Thanks to all the #RichGirls who agreed to be interviewed for this episode. Other Resources An Efficient Way to Combine Finances for Marriage How We Built our First Couple's Budget Follow along Blog Instagram Twitter
Feb 16, 2022
Is House-Hacking Still Lucrative in 2022's Housing Market?
Ever seen folks on the internet talk about house hacking? It's – admittedly – a magical concept if you can pull it off, and basically involves living for free by buying a place and then having your tenant foot the bill. As someone who loves free shit, I was IN. Except... the cost of homes has skyrocketed, and the price of rent (in a lot of places) hasn't risen as much. What does that mean for those trying to get in now? Big thanks to Mallory (@fuelingfinancialfreedom on Instagram) for being my #RichGirl interviewee for today's episode.
Feb 09, 2022
A SPENDING PROBLEM?: What Gambling Addiction Research Teaches Us About Our Financial Behavior
Today's episode dives into gambling research (via Chief of the Stanford Addiction Medicine Dual Diagnosis Clinic, Dr. Anna Lembke) and what it teaches us about our own dopamine pathways: Specifically, how strange it is that we can get the most dopamine when something objectively bad is happening (like losing money while gambling). We'll discuss unhealthy relationships with spending, earning, saving, and – bonus! – we'll hear from 3 members of the Money with Katie community who share their stories about spending problems. Finally, we'll review two major tactics you can try to address the issue (whether you're more of a compulsive spender or saver). A big thanks to #RichGirls Cynthia, Kate, and Taylor for their vulnerability.
Feb 02, 2022
ALL THINGS ENTREPRENEURSHIP: Pt. 2 with ChroniFI Founder, Ben Miller
Today’s episode brings back our friend Ben Miller, Founder of ChroniFI, for a Pt. 2 (for our first conversation, check out Ep. 11). We talk all things entrepreneurship:  The difference between working a 9-5 and entrepreneurship  The surprising aspects of monetizing a blog  Why entrepreneurship isn’t a democracy The unexpected pros & cons of starting your own “thing” How to begin to find the thing you’re passionate about The consequences of living in alignment, “scratching the itch,” and indulging curiosity for curiosity’s sake
Jan 26, 2022
FINANCIAL FREEDOM: How Much Money Would You Need to Never Worry About Money Again?
Today's episode is a deep dive into a concept that most of us have probably never stopped to ponder: How much money would I need to never worry about money again? If the answer is, "There's no amount of money that would make me stop (insert hyper-frugal habit here)," this episode might be a must-listen for you. We'll talk resources, privilege, time, and the ultimate existential crisis-inducing question: What's the point? Moreover, is there a mathematically sound or reasonable way to calculate that number?
Jan 19, 2022
NICE STUFF IS MAKING YOUR LIFE WORSE: Reflections on Materialism
Today, we're revisiting a topic I first covered a few years ago – but with a renewed interest after the Christmas season (and all the damn Amazon boxes that accompany it). Thanks to today's sponsor, Capitalize, for their partnership in today's episode. If you'd like Capitalize to roll over your 401(k) for free FOR you, check them out.
Jan 12, 2022
TRAVEL REWARDS PT. 2: How to Decide Which Card to Use & Other Ways to Earn Points
Welcome back to Season 2 of the Money with Katie podcast! Today, we're exploring the ways in which I think about strategizing your spending across different credit cards (and how to earn more points). You can sign up for the Travel Rewards 101 free mini course here. Thanks to Capitalize for sponsoring today's episode – you can learn more about using Capitalize to roll over your old 401(k) for free here.
Jan 05, 2022
#12: MY TOP 3 FINANCIAL LESSONS OF 2021: Earning More, Lifestyle Creep, and the Truth About Alignment
Today, we're discussing the top 3 financial lessons I'm taking from 2021. This is the last episode of season 1, and I'd love to hear what you're interested in for season 2. Shoot me an email at! Thanks to Capitalize for sponsoring today's episode. Capitalize is my favorite free 401(k) rollover service, and you can read about my experience using their product to roll over my 401(k) here.
Dec 22, 2021
#11: MONEY, HAPPINESS, AND TIME: Interview with Ben Miller, Founder of ChroniFI
Today, I'm interviewing a friend of mine who left the trading floor at Goldman Sachs to start his own company that helps people make sense of their finances and relate them back to the one precious resource that matters most: Time. I loved this conversation, and Ben is fantastic, as you'll hear. Here's where you can find him: Try ChroniFI with a 60-day free trial: Ben's budding blog, which I'm trying to convince him to blow up even more If you're interested in rolling over a 401(k) with the sponsor of today's episode, Capitalize, check out my full product review here.
Dec 15, 2021
#10: 3 QUESTIONS YOU SHOULD ASK YOURSELF FOR 2022: Annual Financial (and Life) Planning
Today, we're talking about three questions we should be asking ourselves in preparation for a new year. Annual planning (both financial and otherwise) is super powerful for achieving the things we want. Our three questions: Where will I be one year from today? Where am I right now? What's my one word for 2022? In this episode, I'll talk you through how to answer these questions (and the questions within them) and how to use them to reach your goals in 2022. The 2022 Wealth Planner launches January 1, 2022 at midnight.
Dec 08, 2021
#9: HOW TO FIND A WELL-PAYING CAREER YOU LOVE: Interview with Millennial Success Coach Eliana Goldstein
Today on the show, I've got my friend Eliana Goldstein, a Millennial Success Coach who focuses on career coaching (she's certified!). Sign up for Eliana's free masterclass for Money with Katie listeners on Wednesday, Dec. 8 here (4PM PST/7PM EST). We discuss: Her journey to becoming a career coach and why she's uniquely qualified to do it Why so many Millennials are unhappy in their careers, and how they can begin to remedy it How we should think about the "fulfilling career" vs. "high-paying job" tradeoff Career mindset & mapping
Dec 01, 2021
#8: BETTERMENT CEO INTERVIEW: Financial Independence & Successful Investing with Sarah Levy
I was excited to talk to Sarah, the CEO of Betterment, about some of the tough questions I've wanted to ask someone for a long time: COMPETITION: What makes Betterment better than, say, Wealthfront? HUMAN EXPERTS: How much human involvement goes on behind the scenes with a roboadvisor? THE FUTURE: Where's Betterment headed in the next 5 years? 10? INVESTING WITH YOUR VALUES: How is Betterment approaching socially responsible investing? If you want to get started with Betterment, you can do so here.
Nov 24, 2021
#7: BACKDOOR ROTH IRA NO MORE?: What High Earners Should Do If It Goes Away
All right, maybe the episode title should be, "What high earners should already be doing regardless of whether or not it goes away." I'd argue that the Backdoor Roth IRA is actually the sub-optimal path forward if you've got W2 wages and self-employment income. In today's episode, we talk about something you should consider doing instead to defer even more income. RESOURCES MENTIONED "We Should All be Millionaires" by Rachel Rodgers Rolling over your 401(k) easily
Nov 17, 2021
Today, we're riffing on a few things: How I discovered financial independence, what my life was like then, the progress I've made, and how my goals have shifted since then. Ultimately, we're taking a more thoughtful look at the way we approach financial goals and if – sometimes – we kinda miss the point.
Nov 10, 2021
#5: SPENDING GUILT: 3 Tips to Overcome Guilty Spending
Inspired by my recent venture into the capsule wardrobe, I wrote and recorded this episode about overcoming spending guilt as an objectively high earner who has a hard time spending money. We'll dig into... My money stories from childhood Why (I think) I have a hard time with spending, and what I'm doing about it 3 legitimate, actionable tips for feeling less guilty about spending your money The budgeting app I mentioned in today's show is called Copilot, and you can use the code KATIE2 to double your free trial.
Nov 03, 2021
#4: SELF-EMPLOYMENT TAXES: How to Save on Taxes When You're Self-Employed
Self-employed people are able to contribute a ridiculous amount of money to their special self-employment retirement accounts. Today, we're going to dig into: Everything you need to know about Solo 401(k)s and SEP IRAs Where your self-employment tax even comes from How to decide what's better for you – Solo 401(k) or SEP IRA – depending on how much money you make and whether or not you have a full-time job, too The only way to avoid paying the 15.3% self-employment tax How you could save more than $10,000 in taxes The easy calculation for figuring out how much you're allowed to contribute to a SEP IRA or Solo 401(k) My new strategy for ditching the Backdoor Roth IRA and getting Roth exposure elsewhere, allowing me to use a big, fat SEP IRA RESOURCES MENTIONED You can open a SEP IRA with Betterment today The fancy IRS calculator for determining what you're allowed to contribute (but I'd just use the easy formula I mentioned in the episode!)
Oct 27, 2021
#3: TOP 5 PERSONAL FINANCE BASICS: Money for Beginners
Today, we're looking at the top 5 basics for people who are starting their personal finance journey: Paying off debt strategically Not over-doing the emergency fund Investing early and often in a tax-efficient way Living beneath your means Using credit cards to travel for free RESOURCES MENTIONED Get started with Betterment > "Betterment Safety Net" Pick up a Wealth Planner tool for an exact emergency fund recommendation How to Use Your 401(k) in Early Retirement without a 10% Penalty 401(k)s for the Self-Employed A Case for Why Nice Stuff Might Be Making Your Life Worse The Top 3 Spending Mistakes I See Travel Credit Cards: A Full Breakdown Guide
Oct 20, 2021
#2: HOW TO TRAVEL FOR FREE: Credit Card Travel Rewards 101
An episode by popular demand: Let's talk about how you can travel for free using credit card rewards. Today, we're going to talk about: The prerequisites for using credit card travel rewards (who should and shouldn't be doing this) FAQs about timing, risks, credit score implications, and more The 5-6 cards I recommend getting, in order, and why the annual fees are worth it RESOURCES MENTIONED The Wealth Planner The Chase Freedom Flex Card application link The Chase Sapphire Preferred application link The Chase Southwest Airlines Rapid Rewards Priority Card application link The Chase Marriott Bonvoy Boundless Card application link The Platinum Card from American Express application link The Platinum Card from American Express full updated review Travel rewards as a couple ("two-player mode")
Oct 13, 2021
#1: HOME OWNERSHIP RANT | My Real Beef with the Debate
The home ownership debate (to rent or to buy?) is heated and – I would argue – frustrating. Today, I'm diving into my REAL beef with the, "Renting is throwing your money away," condescension – in the hopes that young people will learn how to run the numbers instead of relying on conventional wisdom. ARTICLES REFERENCED When the Math Supports Buying Your Primary Residence Our Net Worth is More than $500,000 – Here's Why We Choose to Rent Why Your House is a Terrible Investment (JL Collins)
Oct 06, 2021